Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

roxanne, menlo park, california — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:18:18 GMT

If Dr. Ivins made these threats at a group therapy session, why was Duley the only person who reported it? Has anyone spoken to others who were in the group? I'm afraid this man might have been railroaded by the FBI like his lawyer said. If the FBI had told that woman they were investigating him, she might have just freaked out and exaggerated his statements because she was scared.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Mark, Danbury, CT — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:48:06 GMT

Thois guy should NEVER have been released from the mental hospital. The judge who allowed him to be released should be disbarred.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Zeev Reuteman, Oxford, U. K. — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:54:29 GMT

Undoubtedly there were FBI agents interested in stopping this well informed scientist from telling all he knew about top govt. involvement in the antrax affairs in the USA.

There remain a few questions:

- Who "suicided" him?
- Under who's orders?
- Who benefits from his death?
- How much did he know about the company and the fed's involvement in antrax WOMD developments?

The answers will point the way.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Paul Dirks — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:58:34 GMT

Correct me if I'm wrong.

We was known to be a danger to himself and others, he was a prime suspect in an infamous terrorist attack, and yet he was released from a mental hospital, not arrested and not indicted until AFTER he was given adequate freedom to kill himself?

Why do I get the feeling that the FBI saw this as a problem solving itself?

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Rustyw, Wisconsin — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 21:12:18 GMT

UNBELIEVABLE!
1) A psychotic killer in a lead position of research on biological weapons of mass destruction for the US government? Don't they screen these guys for psychological problems?
2) If this were out of a fiction book, we would be assured that it was impossible! it's like we live in a great big asylum for the mentally ill and the inmates are in charge!
3) I don't think humans have the answers for the problems we humans have. Only God can straighten out this mess on earth!

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

A. Miller, San Diego, CA — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 21:36:09 GMT

This is highly questionable. The connection between fantasies of shooting your co-workers and confiding it to ones therapist and mailing antrax letters seems weak at best. Also, the therapist behavior may be marginally legal, but certainly less than ethical. So why if Ivins was a primary person of interest, why hasn't the FBI with all of it's million dollar forensic hardware been able to find a shred of physical evidence ? Let's not forget Richard Jewell as a case study in botched Justice Department politcal prosecution.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Will, Morro Bay, CA — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 21:55:38 GMT

It's the same old story. All the warning signs are there. The danger is clear but nothing happens to stop the death until it is to late. Try talking to the so called authorities about a disturbed person ahead of time.It's a waste of time. They don't care untill it's to late.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

T.R. Jones, Palm Coast, Florida — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 21:57:38 GMT

If you were inclined to not trust the government you might say this is just about the most unbelievable story you have ever read. Watch the news in coming days to see that the FBI has now, after seven years, determined who was responsible for the mailing those envelopes, that the perp is dead and that the case is solved and closed.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Jim Pittman, Colorado Springs, Colorado — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:15:03 GMT

Here we go again with the character assasination before the facts are out. All that appears to have happended thus far is one of the brightest scientists in our country became an individual hounded to death by the FBI in colusion with a "therapist" who must have forgotten rules about client confidentiality. He reportedly committed suicide after becoming a person of interest in the anthrax deaths following 9/11 - along with about 90 other people ranging from Osama Bin Laden to Rush Limbaugh. This kind of quarter-backing does nothing to help the investigation and will only produce some idiotic book deal or "tapes on line" for Ms. Duley and throw up smoke-screens to shield people who have not done their jobs to solve this case earlier. People are too often judged guilty by the media before their day in court and sometimes cannot take the scrutiny and see suicide as the only way to escape courtesy of the Nancy Grace and Ms. Duley types, BOTH of whom need to find a different line of work!

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Johan Holtz, Deming, New Mexico — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:22:16 GMT

Sick S.O.B, makes you wonder how many more are working in some sensitive government position.....

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Alice Walker, Baltimore,MD — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:27:03 GMT

Wow! Do all rights to privacy expire at death? His poor family. He kills himself and then his reputation is murdered.

Doesn't this therapist have any responsibility for maintaining his privacy? She says he "attempted to murder several other people" in 2000. Where's the evidence of that?

In my opinion, lots of people offering therapy are in need of it themselves. I sure hope the damage being done to this man's reputation is deserved. It's seven years later and he hadn't even been charged with a crime. What happened to innocent until proven guilty and a right to a trial? This is a terrible, terrible headline.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Susan Chatham MA — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:33:08 GMT

There are an awful lot of unanswered questions: If Ivins was known to be a psyhotic killer, why was he released from the hospital "a few days later?"

Why would a scientist, who presumably had access to a number of agents that he could use to commit suicde, choose to take an overdose of tylenol with codiene, which is very rarely fatal?

How did a man with a history of homicidal behavior going back to 2000 continue to recieve a high security clearance and access to deadly anthrax in a government facility?

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

John Doe, Seattle, Wash. — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:43:47 GMT

I have no doubt that Ivins went off the deep end recently, but I wonder how Ms. Duley knows so much about what went on with Ivins in 2000? Is this first-hand knowledge or hearsay? She really needs to present herself in public so the credibility of her assertions can be weighed.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

John Doe, Seattle WA — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:56:28 GMT

good riddance

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Philip R. Pruett Parrita Costa Rica — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:00:02 GMT

Yeau, well, people who say what they intend to do really are asking for help sometimes and dont commit acts, they just mouthe...This woman in fact seems hysterical. I dont believe her comments shed any light or are any in way proof that this guy sent the anthrax...he had been under a lot of pressure from the feds and that would tend to make one nuts, especially if you didnt do it. What is the direct proof that he did it? This is just salacious, media-grabbing sensationalist crap which was in the record, so the media prints it to fill up the page. It means absolutely nothing except as it sheds light on the mental state of this therapist. Why would you get a restraining order if he didnt threaten you?

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

jc fleming — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:12:01 GMT

Was this guy still working in a biological/chemical lab in Dietrick? If so how could he possibly keep a secret clearance?

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Tio Tony, Big Wood, MT — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:16:59 GMT

They walk (or walked) among us!

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Norma Jean, Stephens City, VA — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:24:42 GMT

Wow! And his neighbors said what a nice guy he was...it just goes to show you that a psychopath CAN be your next-door neighbor...and you wouldn't even know it.

Thank goodness the FBI was closing in on him, and that he didn't have time to carry out the murder of his co-workers.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Writing Athena, Plano, Texas — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:27:32 GMT

Under what possible pretext was this guy released after having been committed? He clearly should have remained hospitalized. What a nightmare.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Jay Wesr, Camp Lejure, NC — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:46:36 GMT

Wow, this guy worked at a secure government laboratory? what happened to the security screning by FBI, questioning neighbors doctors and so forth. Guess this guy slipped though it all.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Eve Stwart, Chugiak, AK — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:50:35 GMT

Look at most of the comments at other sites; most people aren't buying this "fantastic and neatly tied up" little CIA-like story. Good but sophomoric try! We've all grown up since 9-11.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

suspicious, here — Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:56:37 GMT

headline is misleading. no mp3 of ivins. ? just a woman whom had already been in contact with the fbi before she filed any motion. she says she's been meeting with the fbi guys weekly for 6 months, but can't remember their names? and, did you see the complaint? she's his therapist and can't even spell therapist (or much else for that matter.) weriously, did you see the complaint? also, tape indicates she was his therapist for 6 months? says she reported to fbi for 6 months. too much stinks here.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Angela Perkins, Lewes, Delaware — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:09:57 GMT

If you read the text of Duley's petition for a protective order on The Smoking Gun's website, you are left wondering how this woman ever got a license, or graduated high school. The guy was under a great deal of stress, but responding badly to stress is not the equivalent of guilt. I give no credence to Duley's claims, and wish the FBI had shown some restraint here. It needs to take steps to rebuild its reputation, and it would be nice if they made the objective evidence of his guilt public, if there is any, rather than merely relying on the ravings of an excitable social worker to destroy his reputation.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

dubious — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:23:23 GMT

"forensically diagnosed...as a sociopathic homicidal killer"

how is someone's psychological state "forensically" diagnosed? his shrink doesn't sound competent, but does sound desperate for attention

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Judy Mayfield — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:32:23 GMT

You people responding on this article sound as psychotic as Ivins. Honestly, such conspiracy theories you spout. As a former employee of a federal agency, let me tell you something, THERE IS NO SECRET AGENDA by federal agencies to put something across and delude the general public. Get a life, you people. And, if the FBI was investigating Ivins and about to arrest him, they had more than probable cause. I used to work for them; they, by law, cannot arrest someone without the evidence to support that arrest. Oh, and the psychiatrist HAD to report him to the feds. By law, a psychiatrist cannot keep a death threat or probable harm to someone to herself; she is compelled by law to report it or lose her license.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

ejl, frederick, MD — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:34:39 GMT

I have trouble with this story! The therapist is working with the FBI and plans to testify against Ivins, and she takes him on as a patient at the same time as she enters this "working relationship" with the FBI. Then, she complains about his threats at a group meeting, and talks of him as a man who seeks revenge, especially on women who have crossed him. There is no evidence for that so far. Perhaps Ivins sent the letters to get attention for biological warfare research, but this woman is hard to believe. And now we'll never know for sure. And the vicitims' families, and Ivins' family will never really know what happened. The FBI is mixed up in this mix up somehow.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

9th step — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:40:38 GMT

Great reading. Fun comments. True life better than......

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Leslie,Montgomery AL — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:42:05 GMT

Roxanne--

Probably because the rest of the people in the "group therapy" have as many problems as he did. I say thank you to Ivins, for not costing taxpayers anymore money than he already has. If more criminals followed in his footsteps, we wouldn't have the tax burden of the Federal Institutions we already have.
On a more serious note, I wonder if he pulled any strings and left someone behind to continue his plot after he was dead? Sounds like a Blockbuster plot for a movie to me.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Gail St. Louis — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 02:19:57 GMT

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. And, yes, even after death, he still has privacy, although his family understands it'll have to put everything on the table sooner or later.

And Jane is right about the social worker being required by law to report her patient's threat to kill people. Maybe they released him because he convinced them he wasn't a threat. I don't know.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Angie, Kansas — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 03:25:50 GMT

I see several odd things in this Ivins story: Firstly, the man wanted to go out in a "blaze of glory", so why didn't he? He could have easily taken out a number of strangers if something prevented him from attacking his co-workers, as he had previously committed murder via his mailings.

Secondly, why did none of the other therapy patients report him? If I was in a therapy session with a guy like that from Ft. Dietrich, you'd better believe I'd rat him out.

Thirdly, if Ms. Duley knew he'd attempted to murder others in 2000, shouldn't she have reported that as soon as she knew? If she wasn't his therapist then, shouldn't that person have reported that? I mean, the guy was unhinged for 8 years and nobody checks him out even after all the anthrax mailings went out? WTF?

Don't get me wrong...I don't think the FBI had him killed, or that it was a government conspiracy, but the whole story is a little too Hollywood.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Gisela, Hampton Roads, VA — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 03:26:33 GMT

It's unfortunate how the information in this case is coming out at a slow trickle. It fuels what are likely needless suspicions. That said, I would like to know why someone who was just hospitalized under the circumstances this guy was, was given a heads up that he would be arrested and criminally charged. The most likely solution to this question is mere incompetence, though other solutions ought to be explored as well. The truth will come out.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Anthony Green md — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 04:36:00 GMT

Psychiatrists and psychiatric hospitals are not policemen, judges or jails. They cannot continue to hold someone involuntarily unless they continue to have good evidence to say that person is a danger to self or others. Sociopaths easily change their stories to suit their needs and if he started to deny threats, they cant keep him in the hospital. This is a big problem now in psychiatry, we are begining to be looked upon to treat these type of people and sociopaths cannot be effectively treated. They are criminals and need to be treated by the justice system.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

JV, West Palm Beach, FL — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:02:50 GMT

The problem with everyone's comments here is that they are assuming that Ivins was "framed" or at least "hounded to death" by the FBI. Homocidal psychopaths are so good at functioning in society that they can go years and decades without being caught or even suspected and I would ventre to say that the government proably looks for certain psychological profiled when dealing with eapons of mass destruction. You certainly aren't going to look for someone who has johnny do gooder attitude when testing chemicals that can kill thousands of people. It takes a certain kind of person to work with that stuff. And another thing, Ms. Duley is a group therapist, not the highest ethically ranked kind of therapist and if you don't think that therapists talk about their cases to each other and other people, you are all sadly mistaken. Ivins made calls to her house and threatened her either directly or indirectly. As a suspect in the anthrax case, I would have called too. If you heard your neighbor was a suspect in a doble murder and he called and threatened you, wouldn't you call the police and tell them everything you knew? Absolutely. You all should get off your goverment consipracy theory high horses and start thinking logically and without paranoia. Why would they wait 7 years to "kill" Ivins? Why not do it, say, after 2 years, 3 years, 4 years? I will tell you why, because it just isn't true. The only thing the goverment is guilty of is hiring someone they knew was unstable, but he had to be for the type of job they hired him for. And another FYI, there are alot more of "hims" working for the government than you would probably care to know about, but the fact is that we need them to do all the stuff that neither you nor I want to know about or do ourselves. So, please, relax with the conspiracy stuff. It's over.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

JenniferK, Joliet, IL — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:11:28 GMT

Therapists have the same duty to keep personal information confidential as physicians, lawyers and clergymen. Confidentiality is to be violated only when the person threatens homicide or suicide or admits child or elder abuse. People in group therapy are also bound under pretty much the same rules. Other people in the group may well have gone to the authorities and they were already acting on the therapist's information.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Gillian Karp, Chevy Chase, Maryland — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 14:42:25 GMT

I'm curious that I haven't seen any pieces on the potential or posited effects of anthrax on mental functioning. What are the chemical changes in the brain that may be caused by the anthrax vaccine Dr. Ivins was reported to have taken? Surely his history as a congenial, mild mannered family man with a sudden onset of homicidal and suicidal ideation, impulsive behavior and/or psychotic process might implicate exposure to anthrax.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Valerie Harter, Ozark, Missouri — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 15:43:30 GMT

Several people are upset because the therapist seemed to break privacy rights. After taking an ethics class as a therapist, I was taught there are three cases where all therapists have a mandate to break confidentiality. It is common practice for a therapist to put this into their initial intake paperwork they give to the client before therapy begins.

The courts require therapists to break confidentiality in three cases: 1) if a client threatens to harm themselves (suicidal) and they have a plan to do so and the means to carry it out 2) if the client threatens to harm someone else (homicidal) and has a specific plan and means to do so. 3) if a client discloses they are involved in child abuse or knows of a situation where somebody else is currently abusing a child, the therapist must report this information to Child Protective Services so it can be investigated to make sure the child is safe.

In the homicidal threat category (2) a client can say,"I feel like killing my mom." But upon further questioning, if the client says "I don't know how I would do it--I just wish she would die", then the therapist doesn't have to report this because the threat is passive and there is no plan to carry it out. In the case of Ivins, he made specific threats and described how he would follow through on killing people.

There was a landmark court case in California that set a precedent on privacy rules: a therapist was held liable for not warning a family that her client had said he was going to kill a person and had a specific plan and time to do so. Even though the therapist told campus security of her concerns, she was still sued because she didn't make an attempt to call and warn the client's family directly of the threat after the session.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Chuck, Memphis, TN — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:48:36 GMT

Ivins reminds of recent FBI spy Robert Hanssen: both led double lives. On the one hand family man, church-goer, successful professional. On the other, secret life of crime and excitement which really got the adrenalin going. And years of pleasure watching the authorities go down the wrong paths like Keystone Kops.

Indeed, many times violent fantasies are not carried out, but many times they are. Do you want to be responsible for taking such a chance? Thank goodness our medical confidentiality laws have some sensible limits.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Kelley James, West Hills, CA — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 19:53:47 GMT

1) Manditory reporting parties include any physician, social worker, teacher/instructor, or other person in that kind of position of responsibility. The therapist acted approprietly.

2) The judge agreed the man was a danger and granted a protective order. He acted appropriately.

3) Under the current civil rights laws in the U.S. the doctors acted to release him as soon as he said "the magic words". To keep him any longer would have been a violation of his civil rights. They, too, acted appropriately.

4) Remember this man is NOT a criminal - he has NOT been convicted of any crime, he is ALLEGED to have said these things.

5) Blame ex-pres Ronald Reagan for the ease with which the mentally ill walk into and oput of mental facilities. the homeless do it to stay warm in the winter.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Barb Gale, Spokane, WA — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 20:28:11 GMT

The therapist is bound to report to authorities who can do something about it, any reasonable suspicion that a person is a danger to himself or others. The fact that the person is a client and provided confidentiality in his dealings with the therapist is rendered secondary to this obligation.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Belles, Phoenix — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 20:56:21 GMT

Depending on the state you can't hold someone in a mental facility over a certain period of time. This would explain why he was released. Second of all, if your consipiracy notions are true, then how come the first guy they suspected all this time didn't also meet some untimely death? Ivins was a mentally disturbed man. My only question is why, if this guy is so whack that #1 he's being treated by a social worker and #2 why is he in group therapy? Was he there on his own or was he court-ordered to be there? If court-ordered then why didn't they have him in intensive psychotherapy. Some things don't add up, but I'm guessing it's more of a failing in this country's mental health system.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

CY Lin, Toronto, Ontario, Canada — Sun, 03 Aug 2008 21:51:48 GMT

Isn't he supposed to be innocent until proven guilty? And isn't he entitled to a second opinion regarding his psychological well-being? It sounds like the therapist acted selfishly and primarily out fear, and in a way that probably adversely affected the patient's psychological health.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Dave, Sydney Australia — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 00:31:17 GMT

In Australia we stopped locking up most mentally ill people 20 years ago. We where told this was done to stop infringing their rights. But in truth, it was just a simple cost saving exercise. It's much cheaper to clean up the mess when these people flip out, than to provide proper care for them long term. No conspiracy's just economics.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Joe Doe, Somewhere USA — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 01:18:31 GMT

I would also just like to add to my previous comment from below that Ms Duly, the quak that testified against Ivans in county court (listen to your audio testimony on msnbc), she sounds like she's reading he statements out of a script from a fiction novel..... She doesn't even state with due process, who he previously tried to kill, when, and where he previously tried to kill people..... and what makes her statements more unbeliavable..... this was back in 2000, and she never reported an attempted murders to authoritys until now in July 2008, and she knew he was a top scientist for a weapons of mass descrution facility....... Can anything be more unbelievable than her testimony..... This obviously was a railroad job, to take Mr Ivan off the streets..... and line the way for his 'physcatic' illness, and that he was only 'a revenge killer', and then thus the subsquent coverup and public scrutiny justifing his 'good riddance' with his 'suicide'......

Guess the only question left now, is who 'suicided him'.....

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Laura K., Cleveland, Ohio — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 01:23:48 GMT

I can't help but feel sorry for Dr. Ivins, but even more for the families of those killed by the Anthrax attacks. Let's just say that there's a much bigger judge out there, and if Dr. Ivins did this - he'll eventually be judged. You also can't help but feel empathetic for Dr. Ivins family who have dealt with this hell for the past seven years, and now to have to deal with his suicide. I just pray for all involved. We all shouldn't judge - since we are innocent until proven guilty! Although, anymore it doesn't seem like it in this country with all the secret activities that go on in the government!!!

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

John Smith — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 03:27:46 GMT

Just speculating. Maybe he is just the fall guy. Seems like it was more than a coincidence. Maybe he was coerced into testing the anthrax by the powers that be. It happened during the tragedy of 9/11 when it would be given less attention, or blamed on terrorists, by the media. The cia has a history of doing things like this in the past. The fact that he was not investigated sooner is evidence of incompetence or intention. Choosing him would have been easy due to his past problems. Anyone else with a security clearance, without someone manipulating it the background, would have been terminated immediately upon exhibiting the behavior he showed before the anthrax incidents. This theory should be investigated, however if it's a black project, finding the truth will be difficult. By the way, why did they go after the wrong guy for so long and then end up paying him to keep quiet in the end? Clearly more flags had been raised regarding Mr. Ivins behavior.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Ms Louis, Severn, Maryland — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 03:55:30 GMT

No conspiracy theroy here, just another FBI (Fumbling Bureau of Investigation)scapegoat. Stop putting so much faith in the government and everything they say. Every word uttered by the media or government is not always the truth!

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Dead Bishop, Freedom, AZ — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 06:34:28 GMT

Hey people. Let's not get too excited here. If our Government's secret police say that the right guy was found to have done the right thing and saved the taxpayers TONS of money, then we should all just be grateful and thank God for a job well done. THE CASE IS SOLVE -ED!

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Joe Smith , Washington,MI — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 06:54:40 GMT

Isn't it funny how our government seems to tell the public all kinds of things, like about this "psycho scientist", a lot of which later turn out to be lies, like weapons of mass destruction in Iraq espcially with this administration. And sadly a good deal of the American public believes it and never questions it at all it is very sad and scary.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Jon Davidson, Los Angeles — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 07:36:02 GMT

A. Miller of San Diego, you are incorrect on two counts. Reporting intentional and credible plans to murder others or commit suicide isn't just ethical, it's required under law. Therapists have been prosecuted for not revealing plans by patients they knew about after murders were committed. Also, there are plenty of "shreds of evidence" connecting him to the Anthrax murders; most notably the forensic evidence that the very specific type of Anthrax DNA he was working with - a very specific strain - was found in the bodies of the victims who died.
The Anthrax DNA strains are tightly controlled and tracked, and they vary considerably; which is why a broad spectrum vaccine was so hard to develop.
They just recently got the technology, which was enormously expensive, to the point where they could afford to run the tests conclusively to match the DNA strands without error. The Anthrax he used in his lab and that found in the victims is a match. And it's not a case of "oh, there is plenty out there". There isn't. Review or disregard the facts as you will.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

pat browning, chesterland, OH — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 10:45:25 GMT

Therapists have both a legal and ethical duty to report to authorities clients who threaten to harm themselves or others. I don't see a breach of confidentiality in this case, as the law was obeyed. There are similar laws the public might be unaware of, e.g., the legal duty of teachers, physicians, nurses, ministers, etc, to report child abuse.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Mitch, Columbus, Ohio — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:45:59 GMT

The therapist was required by law to report those threates. Also, this is group therapy, how much right to confidentiality to you get when you attend group therapy? If this is the man who mailed weaponized Anthrax our then none of her statements sound far-fetched at all. If you go to your therapist, doctor, attorney, or clergy member and admit that you want to kill a person or people, they have to tell the police. And believe me, most of them are okay with that.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Bochefus McGillicutty, Sanford, Florida — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 13:05:36 GMT

Let's See! "The Federal Govt" has no SECRET AGENDA!!?? They LIE CONSTANTLY to the U.S. Citizens, they go to WARS based on out-right LIES, they WITHHOLD INFORMATION from the public, and, can not seem to keep their stories straight.
No secret agenda you say!

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

JPF, Waco, Texas — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:42:55 GMT

I really try not to be cynical about the Government, to give the benefit of a doubt, but the truth always reinforces my cynicism and incredulity. (After all, I was a Federal attorney in Washington for many years.) Still, I don't assume the existence of a conspiracy. Nonetheless, isn't the presumed resolution of this matter just far too convenient?
Unnamed Government officials suggest that Iraq was the source of the post-9/11 anthrax attacks. A top bioweapons researcher in a top-secret facility turns out to be a "psychopathic killer," and continues working there for years, handling some of the most frightening and devastating organisms on the planet. His motives? UNKNOWN, the subject of pure speculation. The Government's oversight of one of the most dangerous facilities in the world? Totally incompetent, if we are to believe the "facts."
Case closed? That's what the Government says. I don't think so.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

E. Ferrari, San Francisco, CA — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:12:31 GMT

It is irresponsible to put up such a headline when there isn't a shred of evidence against Dr. Ivins. The allegation was made by a recently graduated drug counselor with a history of DUI convictions and financial trouble. She's not a psychologist and is in no position to diagnose anyone.

The audio tape isn't chilling, it's ridiculous. Duley claims to have known Ivins well yet she cannot produce a single concrete detail to back up her allegations.

Worse, if you hear the tape, no one in that courtroom asks her to clarify anything. We're going to find out this man was innocent and was hounded to death.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

john doe, unknown in usa — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:28:22 GMT

We now live in a world that is greatly different from the "always fair" "always informed" socity we once knew. 9/11 changed all that. Our world will never be as it used to be.

There have been and continues to be great research on bioweapons going on in the world today. It is a relative cheap weapon. However, it is very inefficient for any activity other than to frighten people. I the general public was privy to all this research, the world would be in complete parinoia at all times.

The organisms listed as possible weapon organisms are found endemically in most of the world. They are easy to obtain and easy to reproduce. We have had "attacks" with these organisms and others that are not on this list used within our country for the disurption of society. Most of these events were not successful.

Everyone is upset that we didn't find warehouses full of WMDs in Iraq. Iraq was a major producer of insecticides. Insecticides are "nerve agents" to bugs. There is only a few steps and the alteration of the disemination process from pesticides to nerve gases. As for biologicals, a GPS point and a cup of sand can produce enough Antrax within a few months to be a major player.

Right now there is great concern for the antibiotic-resistant Acinetobacter baumanii that is comeing from Iraq in the wounds of our military. This organism has some genetic material in common with Legionella spp. The Russians were doing very indepth experiments with splicing the genes of one organims into another organism. This gave the organism a two-fold attack mechanism. One organism produces an illness that could be easily treated. The second organism would produce the toxins that would, undetected, distroy the body with the toxins it produces.

Occassionally scientists realize what the potential outcome of some of these organisms. They don't see anyone listening or acting upon this threat. This omission of action builds the fear of what can happen. Their personality cannot tolerate this inaction. Most of them just quit and go elsewhere, Rarely, this person will use these methods to alert the world to what is happening.

I work with people who are planning for these events and how to accomodate these happening within our everyday society. This is a frightening horizon. The threat is very real, either by intention or accident.

So far, our protection agencies have kept us from having to experience such an event. Those who received the Anthrax letters experienced a fear they had never had and hope to never have again. I say "keep up the good work" to our protection agencies. They are successful in keeping us safe.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Kelly D, Austin TX — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:16:37 GMT

Specifically, the dissocial personality disorder is described by the World Health Organization by the following criteria:

Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
Marked proneness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
Persistent irritability.

Three or more of the following are required:

Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

I really dont see how someone who is happily married with children, a career, a college degree, healthy friends and neighbors, and has won several awards for excelence can be named a Psychopath. Innocent until proven guilty people.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Evelyn Glatt, Chapel Hill, North Carolina — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:22:21 GMT

I am always surprised at how little is understood about the mentally ill, even severely mentally ill population. They are no longer hospitalized. They are in the workplace, colleges and universities (remember Virginia Tech?), in the homeless population, jails and prisons, etc. They are often very bright, even brilliant, but also often unstable. Under current law it is very difficult to keep even the severely mentally ill hospitalized if they are insistent on leaving. Their civil rights are strongly protected. We seem to be still in the middle ages as regards the mentally ill, and cannot even require treatment if there is refusal to be treated or to take medications. This incident has recalled my days of employment in the federal govt. when our office was being required to accept the transfer of a person whose employment record identified him as a paranoid schzophrenic, with page after page of history supporting this diagnosis. He was being passed around from agency to agency and could not seem to be fired. We somehow found a way to pass him along as well, no one could find a way to fire him. That is just the way it is. I would have hoped that as sensitive a place as Fort Detrick is, there would be better controls, but I guess not. In conclusion, we are not now, nor have we ever dealt effectively with our large mentally ill population. Just think about it. Many countries in this world are now (or have been) led by psychopaths, whose behaviors have led to the death of millions.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Michael,kent oh — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 19:26:46 GMT

Ok,I listened to the tape. These statements that hes a psychotic revenge killer were "forensically" diagnosed. From the tape,appears that this incident that she is talking about is in fact the Anthrax attacks themselves. The "diagnosis" appears to be by the FBI themselves. While I can understand her concern about him and for her personal safety because of the accusations against him, its not indicative of his guilt. To present it as evidence is circular reasoning. He the anthrax attacker,because he makes violent rants. His violent rants should be taken seriously,because hes the anthrax attacker.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Mary from Memphis — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 20:14:45 GMT

There have been many facts left out of this story.
Sadly, we (the public) may never know most of them.

I have no idea if Ivins is guilty but, I do agree that the information we have does sound much like a promotion advertisement for the "movie of the week".

Let's not forget Judy Mayfield former employee of a Federal Agency not only has the public been horribly lied to by the American Government but, the FBI aren't the only ones involved in the releasing of this information.

As for the therapist, by law any mental health professional is required by law to report these threats.
Whether we have been given the full and exact quote from the therapist or not..
Her career as a mental health professional is over, due to the media and herself.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Brian, Port Jefferson — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 20:20:53 GMT

If a police officer is suspected of a crime in this country, they are relieved of duty (with pay usually) and are made to hand over thier gun and badge; yet, this guy was allowed to return to his job as a specialist of biological war..? Strange...

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Desy, Springfield, MO — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 20:41:28 GMT

Taking your own life is not an admission of guilt. In this country we say we believe you are innocent until proven guilty but it sounds like most of us actually belive the other way around. Ivans had not been charged with anything and even if he had, he had not been found guilty of anything and may never have been. He was obviously having some mental difficulties which is understandable given the circumstances and was seeking help. I'm sure I would be very upset to find that the person I thought was there to help me was helping the very organization who was trying to ruin me. Who wouldn't feel betrayed? Is this why he allegedly threatened his therapist? In what context did he threaten his co-workers? Did he say he 'felt' like killing them or that he was 'going' to kill them? In any case it didn't happen and apparently no one at his work seemed afraid of him or complained about his coduct that we have heard about. He was, it seems, still employed until recently. We don't know all the answers or even all the questions regarding this issue but I for one will not condemn him because the FBI 'believed' he was the right person. I find it hard to believe he was the only person with access to this anthrax. What if he had died of a heart attack or in some accident? Could no one else continue his work? Is no one working on it now? Call me a sceptic but I need to have more evidence than we have been given. As an American I expect it and I believe Mr. Ivans and his family deserve it.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

EAW — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 21:54:44 GMT

First of all, Ivins had been depressed -- and rightly so -- for about a year, after finding out that the FBI was concentrating all of their resources on finding a reason to charge him with murder. I challenge anyone to hold it together under the circumstances.
Second, he was voluntarily in therapy, not court-ordered.
Third, the only thing you have to do to keep someone in a mental facility here in Maryland is go to court and convince a judge to keep him there. This is not done if the mental health professionals don't think it necessary.
Fourth, a therapist who starts telling other people crazy stories about you can be very damaging, even if the stories have no basis in fact, and calling her to "thank" her for ruining your life sounds like the angry reaction of someone who understands the implications of what she has done to him.
Finally, the fact that he had access to the particular strain of anthrax used in the mailings is a non-starter. He developed a vaccine effective against multiple strains, including that strain, jointly with others. Got an award for it!
I'm glad that not EVERYBODY read only the headlines and jumped to the conclusion that he was a homicidal psychopath who was guilty of multiple murders. There's a lot more to the story, and most of it is available online.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Adin, Ithaca, NY — Mon, 04 Aug 2008 22:01:36 GMT

The therapist was justified in her report of his suspicious and possibly dangerous oratory. Patient confidentiality takes a back seat to what authoirites call "cue language", or language that, coupled with the patient's diagnoses, sparks interest. The man was given high security clearance because at the time of his appointment, he wasn't apparently mentally ill, my guess is this occurred over time; it developed. What boggles my mind is the fact that none of his co-workers became suspicious. A men and women of science, they should've at least read the elementart signs of mental illness: quirks, ticks and repetive action as well as language.

This man was hounded by the FBI, that is true.
This man was a danger to himself and others not simply because of his oratory -any vagabond from the street who speaks crazily is ignored- but because of his position of power in the US Government. A danger to himself? Indeed.
A danger to others? Certainly.

The apprehension of this man was just and his suicide is no government plot of murder but rather the self inflicted ending of a once peaceful life.
People change, as do their surroundings.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

DEW Council Bluffs IA — Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:15:00 GMT

Let's See, Ivins Therapist is working with the FBI for six Months. At what point was his right to confidentiality violated? Was it the first time she spoke to the FBI or was it the last time she spoke to them or was it when she filed for an order of protection. First of all who approached who about the confidential info from the group therapy sessions. Why dit it go six months before it was neccessary to file for an order of protection. Could it be that this therapist needed protection because Ivins a highly intelligent individual figured out that his therapist had been violating this confidential area of his life for six months. Yes she needs her license revoked and his family should be suing her and the FBI over all of this.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Lake, Northampton, MA — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 00:34:54 GMT

Everyone in the medical field knows that Tylenol is fatal in overdose. It destroys the liver and death ensues in about 2 days as it did in Ivin's case.

Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

turkey — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 06:54:45 GMT

yea.

No conspiracy theroy here, just another FBI (Fumbling Bureau of Investigation)scapegoat. Stop putting so much faith in the government and everything they say. Every word uttered by the media or government is not always the truth!