Exclusive audiotape: Ivins was a psychotic "revenge killer"

Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2008 1:35 PM ET
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By Jim Popkin, NBC News Senior Investigative Producer

In a chilling audiotape, a former therapist of anthrax-case suspect Dr. Bruce Ivins warns a Maryland judge that Ivins is a psychotic "revenge killer" who boasted of buying a gun and killing his co-workers.

The New York Times exclusively obtained the audiotape of a court hearing in which therapist Jean Duley told a judge that she feared for her life. She testifies that, at a July 9 group-therapy session, Ivins announced that he had bought a gun and a bulletproof vest and was plotting to kill his co-workers at the Fort Detrick Army research laboratory.

“He was going to go out in a blaze of glory, that he was going to take everybody out with him,” Duley said. The tape, released to the Times by the Maryland District Court in Frederick, is a recording of the recent hearing at which Duley successfully sought a restraining order against Dr. Ivins.

New York Times reporter Sarah Abruzzese obtained the tape Friday. The link to the 10-minute mp3 audiotape can be found on the left side of the page at: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/02/us/02scientist.html?hp#

Revenge killer:
“He is a revenge killer,” Ms. Duley told a Maryland District Court judge on the tape. “When he feels that he has been slighted, and especially towards women, he plots and actually tries to carry out revenge killings.”

Duley ran group-therapy sessions, and Dr. Ivins was a patient. She said on the tape that she had been cooperating with the FBI in its anthrax investigation and was planning to testify against Ivins before a federal grand jury.

She said that on July 9 Dr. Ivins showed up at the group session in Frederick and was "extremely agitated and out of control." He then described a "long and detailed homicidal plan" regarding his co-workers, Duley said. He also revealed that "he had been roaming the streets of Frederick trying to pick a fight" with a stranger so that he could stab him.

Duley called the FBI and other officials after the troubling group session, and helped have Ivins committed to a mental hospital. She said that Ivins then began calling her, from the hospital, and left threatening messages at 4 in the morning. Ivins was "ranting" and "thanked me for ruining his life" and for enabling the FBI to prosecute him for the anthrax murders.

Duley also told the judge that Ivins had mental problems that began in 2000, when he "attempted to murder several other people" through "poisoning." She didn't elaborate, and NBC News has not been able to locate any old criminal charges against Ivins.

"He has been forensically diagnosed...as a sociopathic homicidal killer," Duley added. "I'm scared to death," she said.

The judge quickly agreed to Duley's request, and ordered Ivins to stay away from his former therapist. Ivins was later released from the mental hospital, and killed himself days later. 

Comments

The therapist was required by law to report those threates. Also, this is group therapy, how much right to confidentiality to you get when you attend group therapy? If this is the man who mailed weaponized Anthrax our then none of her statements sound far-fetched at all. If you go to your therapist, doctor, attorney, or clergy member and admit that you want to kill a person or people, they have to tell the police. And believe me, most of them are okay with that.

Mitch, Columbus, Ohio (Monday, August 04, 2008 8:45 AM)

Let's See!  "The Federal Govt" has no SECRET AGENDA!!?? They LIE CONSTANTLY to the U.S. Citizens, they go to WARS based on out-right LIES, they WITHHOLD INFORMATION from the public, and, can not seem to keep their stories straight.
No secret agenda you say!

Bochefus McGillicutty, Sanford, Florida (Monday, August 04, 2008 9:05 AM)

I really try not to be cynical about the Government, to give the benefit of a doubt, but the truth always reinforces my cynicism and incredulity.  (After all, I was a Federal attorney in Washington for many years.)  Still, I don't assume the existence of a conspiracy.  Nonetheless, isn't the presumed resolution of this matter just far too convenient?
Unnamed Government officials suggest that Iraq was the source of the post-9/11 anthrax attacks.  A top bioweapons researcher in a top-secret facility turns out to be a "psychopathic killer," and continues working there for years, handling some of the most frightening and devastating organisms on the planet.  His motives?  UNKNOWN, the subject of pure speculation.  The Government's oversight of one of the most dangerous facilities in the world?  Totally incompetent, if we are to believe the "facts."
Case closed?  That's what the Government says.  I don't think so.

JPF, Waco, Texas (Monday, August 04, 2008 11:42 AM)

It is irresponsible to put up such a headline when there isn't a shred of evidence against Dr. Ivins.  The allegation was made by a recently graduated drug counselor with a history of DUI convictions and financial trouble.  She's not a psychologist and is in no position to diagnose anyone.

The audio tape isn't chilling, it's ridiculous.  Duley claims to have known Ivins well yet she cannot produce a single concrete detail to back up her allegations.

Worse, if you hear the tape, no one in that courtroom asks her to clarify anything.  We're going to find out this man was innocent and was hounded to death.

E. Ferrari, San Francisco, CA (Monday, August 04, 2008 12:12 PM)

We now live in a world that is greatly different from the "always fair" "always informed" socity we once knew. 9/11 changed all that.  Our world will never be as it used to be.  

There have been and continues to be great research on bioweapons going on in the world today. It is a relative cheap weapon.  However, it is very inefficient for any activity other than to frighten people.  I the general public was privy to all this research, the world would be in complete parinoia at all times.

The organisms listed as possible weapon organisms are found endemically in most of the world.  They are easy to obtain and easy to reproduce.  We have had "attacks" with these organisms and others that are not on this list used within our country for the disurption of society.  Most of these events were not successful.

Everyone is upset that we didn't find warehouses full of WMDs in Iraq.  Iraq was a major producer of insecticides.  Insecticides are "nerve agents" to bugs.  There is only a few steps and the alteration of the disemination process from pesticides to nerve gases.  As for biologicals, a GPS point and a cup of sand can produce enough Antrax within a few months to be a major player.  

Right now there is great concern for the antibiotic-resistant Acinetobacter baumanii that is comeing from Iraq in the wounds of our military.  This organism has some genetic material in common with Legionella spp.  The Russians were doing very indepth experiments with splicing the genes of one organims into another organism.  This gave the organism a two-fold attack mechanism.  One organism produces an illness that could be easily treated.  The second organism would produce the toxins that would, undetected, distroy the body with the toxins it produces.  

Occassionally scientists realize what the potential outcome of some of these organisms.  They don't see anyone listening or acting upon this threat.  This omission of action builds the fear of what can happen.  Their personality cannot tolerate this inaction.  Most of them just quit and go elsewhere,  Rarely, this person will use these methods to alert the world to what is happening.  

I work with people who are planning for these events and how to accomodate these happening within our everyday society.  This is a frightening horizon. The threat is very real, either by intention or accident.  

So far, our protection agencies have kept us from having to experience such an event.  Those who received the Anthrax letters experienced a fear they had never had and hope to never have again.  I say "keep up the good work" to our protection agencies.  They are successful in keeping us safe.

john doe, unknown in usa (Monday, August 04, 2008 12:28 PM)

Specifically, the dissocial personality disorder is described by the World Health Organization by the following criteria:

Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy.
Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations.
Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.
Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence.
Incapacity to experience guilt and to profit from experience, particularly punishment.
Marked proneness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior bringing the subject into conflict.
Persistent irritability.

Three or more of the following are required:

Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
Irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
Reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.

I really dont see how someone who is happily married with children, a career, a college degree, healthy friends and neighbors, and has won several awards  for excelence can be named a Psychopath. Innocent until proven guilty people.


Kelly D, Austin TX (Monday, August 04, 2008 2:16 PM)

I am always surprised at how little is understood about the mentally ill, even severely mentally ill population.  They are no longer hospitalized.  They are in the workplace, colleges and universities (remember Virginia Tech?), in the homeless population, jails and prisons, etc. They are often very bright, even brilliant, but also often unstable. Under current law it is very difficult to keep even the severely mentally ill hospitalized if they are insistent on leaving. Their civil rights are strongly protected. We seem to be still in the middle ages as regards the mentally ill, and cannot even require treatment if there is refusal to be treated or to take medications. This incident has recalled my days of employment in the federal govt. when our office was being required to accept the transfer of a person whose employment record identified him as a paranoid schzophrenic, with page after page of history supporting this diagnosis.  He was being passed around from agency to agency and could not seem to be fired.  We somehow found a way to pass him along as well, no one could find a way to fire him.  That is just the way it is.  I would have hoped that as sensitive a place as Fort Detrick is, there would be better controls, but I guess not.  In conclusion, we are not now, nor have we ever dealt effectively with our large mentally ill population.  Just think about it.  Many countries in this world are now (or have been) led by psychopaths, whose behaviors have led to the death of millions.

Evelyn Glatt, Chapel Hill, North Carolina (Monday, August 04, 2008 2:22 PM)

Ok,I listened to the tape. These statements that hes a psychotic revenge killer were "forensically" diagnosed. From the tape,appears that this incident that she is talking about is in fact the Anthrax attacks themselves. The "diagnosis" appears to be by the FBI themselves. While I can understand her concern about him and for her personal safety because of the accusations against him, its not indicative of his guilt. To present it as evidence is circular reasoning. He the anthrax attacker,because he makes violent rants. His violent rants should be taken seriously,because hes the anthrax attacker.

Michael,kent oh (Monday, August 04, 2008 3:26 PM)

There have been many facts left out of this story.
Sadly, we (the public) may never know most of them.

I have no idea if Ivins is guilty but, I do agree that the information we have does sound much like a promotion advertisement for the "movie of the week".

Let's not forget Judy Mayfield former employee of a Federal Agency not only has the public been horribly lied to by the American Government but, the FBI aren't the only ones involved in the releasing of this information.

As for the therapist, by law any mental health professional is required by law to report these threats.
Whether we have been given the full and exact quote from the therapist or not..
Her career as a mental health professional is over, due to the media and herself.

Mary from Memphis (Monday, August 04, 2008 4:14 PM)

If a police officer is suspected of a crime in this country, they are relieved of duty (with pay usually) and are made to hand over thier gun and badge; yet, this guy was allowed to return to his job as a specialist of biological war..? Strange...

Brian, Port Jefferson (Monday, August 04, 2008 4:20 PM)

Taking your own life is not an admission of guilt.  In this country we say we believe you are innocent until proven guilty but it sounds like most of us actually belive the other way around.  Ivans had not been charged with anything and even if he had, he had not been found guilty of anything and may never have been.  He was obviously having some mental difficulties which is understandable given the circumstances and was seeking help.  I'm sure I would be very upset to find that the person I thought was there to help me was helping the very organization who was trying to ruin me.  Who wouldn't feel betrayed?  Is this why he allegedly threatened his therapist?  In what context did he threaten his co-workers?  Did he say he 'felt' like killing them or that he was 'going' to kill them?  In any case it didn't happen and apparently no one at his work seemed afraid of him or complained about his coduct that we have heard about.  He was, it seems, still employed until recently.  We don't know all the answers or even all the questions regarding this issue but I for one will not condemn him because the FBI 'believed' he was  the right person.  I find it hard to believe he was the only person with access to this anthrax.  What if he had died of a heart attack or in some accident?  Could no one else continue his work?  Is no one working on it now?  Call me a sceptic but I need to have more evidence than we have been given.  As an American I expect it and I believe Mr. Ivans and his family deserve it.

Desy, Springfield, MO (Monday, August 04, 2008 4:41 PM)

First of all, Ivins had been depressed -- and rightly so -- for about a year, after finding out that the FBI was concentrating all of their resources on finding a reason to charge him with murder.  I challenge anyone to hold it together under the circumstances.
Second, he was voluntarily in therapy, not court-ordered.
Third, the only thing you have to do to keep someone in a mental facility here in Maryland is go to court and convince a judge to keep him there.  This is not done if the mental health professionals don't think it necessary.
Fourth, a therapist who starts telling other people crazy stories about you can be very damaging, even if the stories have no basis in fact, and calling her to "thank" her for ruining your life sounds like the angry reaction of someone who understands the implications of what she has done to him.
Finally, the fact that he had access to the particular strain of anthrax used in the mailings is a non-starter.  He developed a vaccine effective against multiple strains, including that strain, jointly with others.  Got an award for it!
I'm glad that not EVERYBODY read only the headlines and jumped to the conclusion that he was a homicidal psychopath who was guilty of multiple murders.  There's a lot more to the story, and most of it is available online.

EAW (Monday, August 04, 2008 5:54 PM)

The therapist was justified in her report of his suspicious and possibly dangerous oratory. Patient confidentiality takes a back seat to what authoirites call "cue language", or language that, coupled with the patient's diagnoses, sparks interest. The man was given high security clearance because at the time of his appointment, he wasn't apparently mentally ill, my guess is this occurred over time; it developed. What boggles my mind is the fact that none of his co-workers became suspicious. A men and women of science, they should've at least read the elementart signs of mental illness: quirks, ticks and repetive action as well as language.

This man was hounded by the FBI, that is true.
This man was a danger to himself and others not simply because of his oratory -any vagabond from the street who speaks crazily is ignored- but because of his position of power in the US Government. A danger to himself? Indeed.
A danger to others? Certainly.

The apprehension of this man was just and his suicide is no government plot of murder but rather the self inflicted ending of a once peaceful life.
People change, as do their surroundings.

Adin, Ithaca, NY (Monday, August 04, 2008 6:01 PM)

Let's See, Ivins Therapist is working with the FBI for six Months.  At what point was his right to confidentiality violated?  Was it the first time she spoke to the FBI or was it the last time she spoke to them or was it when she filed for an order of protection.  First of all who approached who about the confidential info from the group therapy sessions.  Why dit it go six months before it was neccessary to file for an order of protection.  Could it be that this therapist needed protection because Ivins a highly intelligent individual figured out that his therapist had been violating this confidential area of his life for six months.  Yes she needs her license revoked and his family should be suing her and the FBI over all of this.  

DEW Council Bluffs IA (Tuesday, August 05, 2008 7:15 AM)

Everyone in the medical field knows that Tylenol is fatal in overdose. It destroys the liver and death ensues in about 2 days as it did in Ivin's case.

Lake, Northampton, MA (Wednesday, August 06, 2008 8:34 PM)

yea.

No conspiracy theroy here, just another FBI (Fumbling Bureau of Investigation)scapegoat. Stop putting so much faith in the government and everything they say. Every word uttered by the media or government is not always the truth!

turkey (Saturday, August 09, 2008 2:54 AM)

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